WIP PMDG 737-700 for MSFS2020

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astroseus
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Re: WIP PMDG 737-700 for MSFS2020

#11 Post by astroseus »

Think I'm done, everything should be in place normally.
Now deconstruct it while recording a tutorial...wish me luck lol :mrgreen:
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Crunchmeister
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Re: WIP PMDG 737-700 for MSFS2020

#12 Post by Crunchmeister »

A friend of mine is a captain with Air Canada and last year got moved into the 737 as first officer (he just completed his captain training for the 737 and is now in the left seat again).

During his initial conversion training, he spent a lot of time in a procedural trainer such as this one for his initial training before hitting the full on simulator. He sent me a bunch of pics of it. If I can track them down, I'll share them. It's actually quite cool! Looks like a very fancy Air Manager setup with giant touch screens. I was impressed. Although he personally dislikes touch screens and prefers the real simulator with physical knobs and switches.
- Ryzen 5950x, 64GB 3600MHz RAM, RTX3070Ti

Simstrumentation Instrument dev
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jph
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Re: WIP PMDG 737-700 for MSFS2020

#13 Post by jph »

I was at United in Denver in 2001 for jollies on the 737-200 Classic and -300 Mode Ds and there were pilots training on the >= -400 at various stations. The first were basically seats in front of cockpit posters, second were complete but open non-motion fully functioning main panels and overheads and the third were the Mode D full motion units.
The obvious attraction of touch screens is COST - MAJOR MAJOR cost savings but the tactile units will always be gold. The touch certainly offer a great intermediate level though. So much training and familiarisation can be done on tablets now, and indeed is being done on them. A different world even from 20 years ago.
Joe. CISSP, MSc.

astroseus
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Re: WIP PMDG 737-700 for MSFS2020

#14 Post by astroseus »

Interesting to read this kind of things. I never knew that the cockpit familiarization started off with posters and touch screens.
Well I did know but I thought it was more of a 'learn extra at home' thing and wasn't used in the official ATPL training's.
But like said the cost of a full motion simulator is insane. Probably even the operational cost is high so you can guess they try to save money too where possible.

In any case if somebody wants to turn it into a touch trainer. I would be happy to assist with graphics if needed.
I just don't have the development knowledge nor interest to learn/do it myself.

For those who are interested and like the visuals, I am working on some deconstruction videos on this MCP unit and show how the individual elements are made. Analogue gauges will follow in later videos. I made this one with Affinity Designer (no affiliation) for various reasons, with the biggest being the price compared to the good old Adobe Suite.
But the techniques used can/will also apply to other graphical software. In the end it's about the 'concept of subtle layering', not about what software you use.
Whatever tool you use, it works if you know how to use it IMO. So stay tuned for that, I will be uploading those as soon as they are done.

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jph
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Re: WIP PMDG 737-700 for MSFS2020

#15 Post by jph »

Hi,
That's a really great idea as the 'layer' aspect will be new to many yet is a staple and absolutely vital part of any good graphic design process and program.
One thing to be aware of is to assess how good the ability of your graphical package is when drawing arcs for, say, an altimeter or ASI or any instrument with graduations and markings. Many here use 'skinman' because of it's incredible abilities in this area as it was one of the main uses it was designed for afaik.
I use PSP as I have used variations of the package for over 25 years yet I would use skinman for ANY gauge / scale work as it is simply not possible in any convenient way in PSP. As said, skinman has this as a basic function. It is amazing. Can you do all the gauge side of things - like easily creating an arc and major / minor ticks and also the lettering positioning with your graphical program ?. Also make simple and easy changes to arcs like extending or shrinking - along with the ticks and lettering etc ? - adding coloured arcs and sub arcs ? If not then you should look at skinman and incorporate that and the tutorials will then be excellent. As a graphic program user you should master skinman easily.

Also, as for procedural training at home, yes, a lot can be practiced at home but the key issue in a majority of procedures is the interaction between the pilots and the division of duties and mutual checks and balances / crm which are not possible at home.
IN 2001 there were no touch screen trainers. The iPhone had not been invented and the net was still in it's infancy. It is amazing to think that is only 21 years ago. The completely open trainers were actual panels and working instruments and controls. They were beautiful. All lined up in rooms. Stacks of them for each type. They probably ended up on the scrap heap. It is criminal to think of that :( :?
Joe
Joe. CISSP, MSc.

astroseus
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Re: WIP PMDG 737-700 for MSFS2020

#16 Post by astroseus »

Hey Joe,


thanks for your response. In regards to the ease of use making arcs etc...well...I understand your worries if we want to call them that.

It will be more difficult than with Skinman for sure at some points. Since Affinity Designer nor any other graphical program that I know of is like Skinman developed with gauges in mind.
The problem I have with Skinman (and this is personal), is that it's no longer being updated or worked on. Correct me if I'm totally wrong here.
Now, some things will be easier to manage, some are definitely gonna be harder, depending on the task ahead.
There are techniques to work around problems and make life easier though, but again, the pure work of arcs, radials and digit distribution around a circle will be faster with Skinman.
I just don't like to invest time in software that's not gonna be in my long future if that makes sense to you?
But again, this is all pure personal opinion and might sound wrong to many people in many ways :mrgreen:

In the tutorials I will mainly focus on the concept of layer usage instead of purely on 'you can find this option here and it does that'.
Because I have a feeling that some people believe they have to build a button in a single layer.
While you have almost zero effect control in one or two layers. Sometimes I use 5-10 layers just to make one button. It's that stacking of subtle effects that makes it look pretty in my opinion.
So anyone use to Skinman will definitely be able to apply the same logic to the program they like to work in. Because I'm definitely not against Skinman. It's just not for me.
Also because I use to do a bunch of other graphical 2D and 3D work besides gauges.

I'm not claiming to have the right answer either to be honest. People might not even like the graphics I make. Not everyone has nor must have the same idea of pretty.
I just love skeuomarphic design and all I hope is I can show some of the techniques I use, and hopefully someone can do a thing or two with it.


But I appreciate your feedback, don't get me wrong. And I will keep those things in mind for sure.
Greets,
Pieter

astroseus
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Re: WIP PMDG 737-700 for MSFS2020

#17 Post by astroseus »

One thing I forgot to ask Joe, because I really don't know. Does Skinman support symbols?
With symbols I mean what is in some graphic programs called components.

The idea is to give an example.
You have 26 buttons/switches in a design that are all the same except for the text label next to them or on them.
Let's say you copy them from each other but at the end of your design want to tweak them a little or change your mind about a color of a particular layer.
One way of doing it is changing it in all 26 hard copies. Another way is working with symbols. Where you change 1 button, and all 25 others get updated accordingly.
That's just a mega usable feature I got introduced into in my mobile interface job days.
And it translates well in switches, buttons, annunciation lights and other things.

So I was wondering if Skinman has something like that? I'm not familiar with it enough.

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jph
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Re: WIP PMDG 737-700 for MSFS2020

#18 Post by jph »

Hi Pieter
No worries, I fully understand what you are saying and really look forward to your tutorials.
I know some guys use skinman all the time with absolutely amazing results. I use it for the specific arc type functions and then PSP but that is only because I am familiar and comfortable with PSP and also use PSP almost everyday for other jobs.
It will be excellent to see how you use and get the best out of that package - which is new to me. As said, I am very much looking forward to your information and tutorials.
Joe
Joe. CISSP, MSc.

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jph
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Re: WIP PMDG 737-700 for MSFS2020

#19 Post by jph »

aviaking wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 9:25 am One thing I forgot to ask Joe, because I really don't know. Does Skinman support symbols?
With symbols I mean what is in some graphic programs called components.

The idea is to give an example.
You have 26 buttons/switches in a design that are all the same except for the text label next to them or on them.
Let's say you copy them from each other but at the end of your design want to tweak them a little or change your mind about a color of a particular layer.
One way of doing it is changing it in all 26 hard copies. Another way is working with symbols. Where you change 1 button, and all 25 others get updated accordingly.
That's just a mega usable feature I got introduced into in my mobile interface job days.
And it translates well in switches, buttons, annunciation lights and other things.

So I was wondering if Skinman has something like that? I'm not familiar with it enough.
Pieter, Jacques @JackZ is a guru with skinman. I am sure he can answer this.
Joe. CISSP, MSc.

astroseus
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Re: WIP PMDG 737-700 for MSFS2020

#20 Post by astroseus »

Cool, thanks for your support Joe, I appreciate it.

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