Hello
I hope you are all doing well. So winter is coming to Ottawa and that means I can start working on my TBM cockpit again - version 3!
Over the past two winters I built versions 1 and 2 which comprised some prototype hardware panels (albeit not very realistic) based on 4 or 5 Arduinos, over 100 hardware components (switches, rotary encoders) implemented through Air Manager. I learned a lot and decided the time is ready to take it to the next level. Version 3, to be built over this winter is intended to be more realistic and will feature 3 large screens and a 24 in touch screen monitor to display the instruments housed in a panel.
This summer I spent a lot of the rainy days learning FreeCad and examining potential layouts. Due to mainly space limitations I decided to go with 43 inch monitors. This means that the actual TBM cockpit will be downsized a bit. I will share the details as I get going,
However, to get started I need some advice! I have a 43 inch 4K Samsung TV already. Model UN43TU7000FXZC. I have tested this with X-plane and I get good results. I only intend to use the sim at 1080 p resolution. It will run at 4K but since I need 3 displays for scenery and 1 for AirManager I will need to stay at 1080p. But i can run at high settings.
So I was simply going to buy two more Samsung TVs ($550 CDN) Then I discovered Samsung also offers a 43 inch 4K LED Monitor LS43AM702UNXZA ($600 CDN). Now I have read that monitors offer a better game experience.
My ask is what would you folks recommend?
1. Buy two more Samsung TVs to go with my existing TV (total Cost with tax $1243 (CDN)
2. Buy two Samsung MONITORS and use with my existing TV (total cost wit tax $1354 CDN)
3. Buy three Samsung Monitors (Total cost with tax ($2031 CDN)
I am thinking monitors are better than TVs but is it worth double the cost? Will I see the difference? I don't intend on doing any other PC gaming.
Here are my MAIN computer specs
-Intel I9-10900, 65W, 10C, (GT2) 10th generation
-32 GB 3200 MHz DDR4 RAM
-NVIDIA RTX 2060 SUPER (S)
- 256 GB SSD
-1 TB HDD
- Windows 10
I can run 3 scenery monitors on the NVidia @ nearly full graphic settings 1080 plus two 24 in displays (one touchscreen) using the onboard graphics card (5 monitors) and still get over 30 fps
thank you
Ted
Ready to Start TBM 900 Cockpit Version 3.0 (advice needed)
Re: Ready to Start TBM 900 Cockpit Version 3.0 (advice needed)
Hi Ted,
Sounds like cool project.
My Piper Malibu sim was at one point similar to yours. Based on my experiences, I would suggest the following:
Use 2 networked computers...
External Display computer: Basically your current computer running 3 1080p TVs (I use the Insignia brand from Best Buy, very inexpensive). This computer needs to be very high spec. I run a 2080Super and can stay above 45fps with standard XP weather. If you use addon weather it drops to 30 or so.
Sim Computer: This can be pretty low spec. Use a very stripped down flight model, and a graphics board that gives you enough ports for your instrument screens. I use a GTX1080 with four screens. 1) Instructor station, 2) Main instruments, 3) GNS530 #1, 4) GNS530 #2. I routinely get over 100fps on this computer, this is important since AM can only communicate to XP at the frame rate. This gives very smooth instrument performance. AM runs only on this computer along with the Arduinos.
The one down side is that this does require a second licensed copy of XP.
Here's a pic of my Malibu. I currently run 11 Arduinos on the sim computer with a total of about 350 data I/O lines, and 2 display computers (5 external display screens total)
Chuck
Sounds like cool project.
My Piper Malibu sim was at one point similar to yours. Based on my experiences, I would suggest the following:
Use 2 networked computers...
External Display computer: Basically your current computer running 3 1080p TVs (I use the Insignia brand from Best Buy, very inexpensive). This computer needs to be very high spec. I run a 2080Super and can stay above 45fps with standard XP weather. If you use addon weather it drops to 30 or so.
Sim Computer: This can be pretty low spec. Use a very stripped down flight model, and a graphics board that gives you enough ports for your instrument screens. I use a GTX1080 with four screens. 1) Instructor station, 2) Main instruments, 3) GNS530 #1, 4) GNS530 #2. I routinely get over 100fps on this computer, this is important since AM can only communicate to XP at the frame rate. This gives very smooth instrument performance. AM runs only on this computer along with the Arduinos.
The one down side is that this does require a second licensed copy of XP.
Here's a pic of my Malibu. I currently run 11 Arduinos on the sim computer with a total of about 350 data I/O lines, and 2 display computers (5 external display screens total)
Chuck
Re: Ready to Start TBM 900 Cockpit Version 3.0 (advice needed)
Thanks so much Chuck! I am very excited by your post. Your set up is very close to the concept I am planning. You understand what I am looking to achieve and hopefully I can ask for your advice as I start the build. Do you have any plans for the cockpit framing?
Last year I did try 2 computers. The i9 - RTX 2060 Super running three 24 in @ 1080 p for the scenery and a second i7 running a stripped down flight model for the instruments with Air Manager displaying the instruments and running 2 Arduino UNO and 2 MEGAs . This worked extremely well, but then alas I needed that other computer for work. Currently the I9 is running 3 scenery _will be 43" monitors for scenery off the RTX 2060 Super and a single 24 in touch scvreen running Air Manager off the on board graphics. I get over 30fps with good weather flying around Toronto.
I have ordered two 43 in Samsung monitors. They arrive tomorrow! I will test them out along with my exsting 43 Samsung Tv and answer my own question as to whether one can see a difference.
thanks for replying
Ted
Last year I did try 2 computers. The i9 - RTX 2060 Super running three 24 in @ 1080 p for the scenery and a second i7 running a stripped down flight model for the instruments with Air Manager displaying the instruments and running 2 Arduino UNO and 2 MEGAs . This worked extremely well, but then alas I needed that other computer for work. Currently the I9 is running 3 scenery _will be 43" monitors for scenery off the RTX 2060 Super and a single 24 in touch scvreen running Air Manager off the on board graphics. I get over 30fps with good weather flying around Toronto.
I have ordered two 43 in Samsung monitors. They arrive tomorrow! I will test them out along with my exsting 43 Samsung Tv and answer my own question as to whether one can see a difference.
thanks for replying
Ted
Re: Ready to Start TBM 900 Cockpit Version 3.0 (advice needed)
Hi Ted and Chuck. Great projects. 
Ted, do you not have the facility to return an item within 14 days if not wanted ?. In the EU it is the law that any item bought on-line can be returned within 14 days providing you have the original packing and accessories and the item is undamaged. That means you can test the item at your leisure and send it back if not happy. When I bought my monitors I ordered 3 different types and sent two back
. I then ordered two more of the ones I preferred.
Also, I am not sure if I have asked you this before Chuck, (or Ted), but how are you running what you class as 'the flight model' on one machine and the displays on another ? - even with 2 licences. Surely that is just a second PC with XP that uses some X_P functions as well as AM. If you only used AM, you wouldn't need a second X-P copy. - so not 'cut down' flight model, simply that you are using lower settings on the second PC ?
Oh, and Ted, If you can send the monitors back - and they are not much better than the TV - which is basically a monitor at the end of day with current technology, they just tend to use a lower max refresh.. then I would use the huge amount of money saved and buy something like a 2080ti as the 2060 will bottleneck the graphics with 3 monitors. the 2080 as Chuck has, or the 2080ti is a very very noticeable upgrade. The processor is going to be maxed anyway and on that family is virtually a linear relationship in gains based on single core processor sustained speed. You wouldn't notice too much difference with a different processor single core speed but you would notice a considerable difference with the different GPU. I can max out 9900K at 5.2 Ghz on water cooling with 3 x 1080p monitors and also completely max out my 2080ti !. If I change the 2080ti for my 2070 super then the difference is considerable. Yet slowing down the CPU to its normal level makes only a couple of fps difference and in triple monitor setups the smoothness gained by increased FPS is so important as we run at such low frame rates compared to single monitors - and, the increased level of detail one can use is a huge gain at 1080p. Just my thoughts. Luckily I have the GPU's to do direct comparisons and also as the CPU is a 9900K I can run it, within reason, at whatever speed I want to test as it was a good silicon lottery one. I bought 3 of those as well from different stores and kept back the best unit.. I can run that - as said - on 5.2 all day long but I would go for better gpu over CPU with triples and your specs.
Nice work ! looking forwards to the results.
Joe
Ted, do you not have the facility to return an item within 14 days if not wanted ?. In the EU it is the law that any item bought on-line can be returned within 14 days providing you have the original packing and accessories and the item is undamaged. That means you can test the item at your leisure and send it back if not happy. When I bought my monitors I ordered 3 different types and sent two back
. I then ordered two more of the ones I preferred. Also, I am not sure if I have asked you this before Chuck, (or Ted), but how are you running what you class as 'the flight model' on one machine and the displays on another ? - even with 2 licences. Surely that is just a second PC with XP that uses some X_P functions as well as AM. If you only used AM, you wouldn't need a second X-P copy. - so not 'cut down' flight model, simply that you are using lower settings on the second PC ?
Oh, and Ted, If you can send the monitors back - and they are not much better than the TV - which is basically a monitor at the end of day with current technology, they just tend to use a lower max refresh.. then I would use the huge amount of money saved and buy something like a 2080ti as the 2060 will bottleneck the graphics with 3 monitors. the 2080 as Chuck has, or the 2080ti is a very very noticeable upgrade. The processor is going to be maxed anyway and on that family is virtually a linear relationship in gains based on single core processor sustained speed. You wouldn't notice too much difference with a different processor single core speed but you would notice a considerable difference with the different GPU. I can max out 9900K at 5.2 Ghz on water cooling with 3 x 1080p monitors and also completely max out my 2080ti !. If I change the 2080ti for my 2070 super then the difference is considerable. Yet slowing down the CPU to its normal level makes only a couple of fps difference and in triple monitor setups the smoothness gained by increased FPS is so important as we run at such low frame rates compared to single monitors - and, the increased level of detail one can use is a huge gain at 1080p. Just my thoughts. Luckily I have the GPU's to do direct comparisons and also as the CPU is a 9900K I can run it, within reason, at whatever speed I want to test as it was a good silicon lottery one. I bought 3 of those as well from different stores and kept back the best unit.. I can run that - as said - on 5.2 all day long but I would go for better gpu over CPU with triples and your specs.
Nice work ! looking forwards to the results.
Joe
Joe. CISSP, MSc.
Re: Ready to Start TBM 900 Cockpit Version 3.0 (advice needed)
What a fantastic response Joe! There is a lot to unpack there so I will have to get back to you on my progress. Yes there is a return period with BestBuy in Canada and it works well.
For some background I am retired and have time and resources to pursue the wonderful hobby of flight simming, as well as other things. So over the past two winters I have built two simulators using Air Manager, Arduinos and some hardware. I have learned lots, especially on the programming side of things. This winter's project will not be the last, so better computer, better graphics etc are something that may occur in winter of 22/23. One of the things that I have not ventured into (yet) is 3D printing, to make realistic instruments. My switches, rotaries, etc are simply mounted on aluminum plates which attach to the dash panel so they do not light up in the dark. I have started to learn FreeCad to help me step into 3D printing or maybe CNC routing (I have access to one), but I am not ready to tackle this challenge quite yet. For me it seems that researching and building the cockpits is as much fun as flying the completed sim.
I am so grateful for the supporting community who share information and provide help. Much appreciated.
cheers
Ted
For some background I am retired and have time and resources to pursue the wonderful hobby of flight simming, as well as other things. So over the past two winters I have built two simulators using Air Manager, Arduinos and some hardware. I have learned lots, especially on the programming side of things. This winter's project will not be the last, so better computer, better graphics etc are something that may occur in winter of 22/23. One of the things that I have not ventured into (yet) is 3D printing, to make realistic instruments. My switches, rotaries, etc are simply mounted on aluminum plates which attach to the dash panel so they do not light up in the dark. I have started to learn FreeCad to help me step into 3D printing or maybe CNC routing (I have access to one), but I am not ready to tackle this challenge quite yet. For me it seems that researching and building the cockpits is as much fun as flying the completed sim.
I am so grateful for the supporting community who share information and provide help. Much appreciated.
cheers
Ted
Re: Ready to Start TBM 900 Cockpit Version 3.0 (advice needed)
Hi Ted. Absolutely make use of the return period !.. these bastards rip you off every day. This is the chance you have to get some - fully legal and appropriate - payback. Order what you want - 5. 10 items, it doesn't matter. If the legality - is similar to here in the EU (where we also have a MINIMUM of 2 years full warranty!) - is it is ok and normal to send them back in the first 14 days from receiving the item then hell ! -- go for it. !!!.
My CPU - as said, I ordered 3 and chose the best one (lowest default Voltage) and got a great OC bin. !... the GPU(s) I ordered the 2070 super, 2080, and 2080ti.. I actually kept the 2070 super as it was good for another project and a great price (AT THAT TIME!) - I decided on the 2080 ti - this was before the ridiculous scalping that is going on at the moment. Both my RTX GPUs are worth more now than I paid for them.
Monitors, I actually looked at load (inc' tvs) in the stores, then ordered plenty - Not only did I want to see the quality of the display - I wanted to see the actual effects of the viewing angle when the monitor / tv is actually placed at 30 to 45 degrees. These companies don't give a crap. Order what you want - there IS no limit, and just send them back !. pick what suits you.
Retirement is great eh ? - I managed it (early) 17 years ago and never looked back
Bestbuy is getting some shit on the internet at the moment for their PS5 sales - apparently, if you sign up to their 'special' 200 dollar service and help line////// you can get the PS5 without being scalped, if you don't, the price of the PS5 is nearly 200 bucks more. !. play THEIR game. get as many items as you want delivered - test, try out, look at the angles (VERY IMPORTANT!) etc etc, then send the buggers back that don't pass your tests. Make use of every buy and return facility you can possibly use - stuff them and the horse they rode in on.
Regarding monitors, I ended up with the cheapest as they were actually of superior image quality. It is definitely a case here of 'try before you buy'
Joe.
My CPU - as said, I ordered 3 and chose the best one (lowest default Voltage) and got a great OC bin. !... the GPU(s) I ordered the 2070 super, 2080, and 2080ti.. I actually kept the 2070 super as it was good for another project and a great price (AT THAT TIME!) - I decided on the 2080 ti - this was before the ridiculous scalping that is going on at the moment. Both my RTX GPUs are worth more now than I paid for them.
Monitors, I actually looked at load (inc' tvs) in the stores, then ordered plenty - Not only did I want to see the quality of the display - I wanted to see the actual effects of the viewing angle when the monitor / tv is actually placed at 30 to 45 degrees. These companies don't give a crap. Order what you want - there IS no limit, and just send them back !. pick what suits you.
Retirement is great eh ? - I managed it (early) 17 years ago and never looked back
Bestbuy is getting some shit on the internet at the moment for their PS5 sales - apparently, if you sign up to their 'special' 200 dollar service and help line////// you can get the PS5 without being scalped, if you don't, the price of the PS5 is nearly 200 bucks more. !. play THEIR game. get as many items as you want delivered - test, try out, look at the angles (VERY IMPORTANT!) etc etc, then send the buggers back that don't pass your tests. Make use of every buy and return facility you can possibly use - stuff them and the horse they rode in on.
Regarding monitors, I ended up with the cheapest as they were actually of superior image quality. It is definitely a case here of 'try before you buy'
Joe.
Joe. CISSP, MSc.