Using 5th & 6th Aux Displays Used To Be So Easy

You can talk about anything flight (simulation) related here

Moderators: Ralph, russ

Post Reply
Message
Author
GoodSim
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:49 pm

Using 5th & 6th Aux Displays Used To Be So Easy

#1 Post by GoodSim » Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:03 pm

Happy New Year all. Hope all your systems are GO.
I originally posted this in the X-Plane.org Forum but so far it has not generated any replies.

I have run into some very disappointing complications while attempting to operate 2 separate GPUs in the same PC with X-Plane. I previously had no problem with my Nvidia GTX 980 Ti (in top PCIe slot) running 4 monitors alongside a older Nvidia GT 630 that ran 2 small auxiliary monitors. The 980 runs 3 displays in Nvidia Surround and a 4th for Air Manager Panels. The 630 ran the 2 aux displays for other Air Manager panels, Sky Vector, Windows Performance Monitor, etc. The 2 GPUs worked fine in their own 16x PCIe buses (Asus Z-97 Work Station) using an older 388 series driver. However, a more recent driver version was needed to enable Vulcan in X-Plane 11.50 (now 11.51).

As I predicted, the newer 441.20 driver (earliest needed for Vulcan) did not support the GT 630. So I purchased and installed a "modern" Nvidia GT 1030. Windows 10 recognized the older (and much more capable) 980 Ti and the newer GT 1030 and all seemed normal. Unfortunately, Windows 10 has hijacked some control from the Nvidia Control Panel. The only thing left for me to decide was to assign the OpenGL GPU to the 980 Ti for X-Plane (otherwise, the 2 GPU's would "fight" over control and X-Plane would crash). The 980 ran OK on its 4 displays and the 1030 appeared to display normally what I dragged into its 2 monitors. But when I attempted to click a button, rotate a knob, scroll, resize, etc., Windows 10 (or Nvidia) "hijacked" the open windows on the 1030's displays and placed them on the 980 display. Sometimes the 1030 would BSOD. The 980Ti displayed normally. No matter what I have tried so far allows me to use the 2 small displays with Vulcan (multiple driver versions, Windows 10 Graphics GPU Assignments, etc). I got similar behavior with Windows 7 using a Vulcan-capable Nvidia driver, which seemingly indicates that this phenomena is a driver issue.

I have read on other forums that Nvidia has abandoned multi GPU support. If this is true, would I have better luck using a new (cheap) Radeon/AMD GPU alongside the 980Ti? I've read that this marriage could turn out ugly as well. I don't want to use my Intel iGPU since it's a i7 4790k (4.8 Ghz) and is already working hard enough. I am also trying to avoid using a 2nd PC to run Air Manager or Air Player. I'm not looking to increase performance or use DX12 Graphics Acceleration, etc. I would just like to have back the display real estate I once had.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again for everyone's attention.

User avatar
jph
Posts: 666
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:50 pm
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow..

Re: Using 5th & 6th Aux Displays Used To Be So Easy

#2 Post by jph » Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:45 pm

Hi

I think that by far your best option is a second PC. It saves a load of hassle.

you could, for example, get - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LENOVO-Think ... Sw7GVft6BO

Note, the above is the tower version, not the small form factor - this is - or can be - important as the SFF units use a non standard PSU size and also you need a low profile GPU. So if you ever wanted to upgrade the gpu - say - for triple monitors, then the tower takes a stock atx psu whereas the SFF doesn't..

and add your card (the 1030) and get dual display. You wouldn't need to change anything on the pc. - (apart from add the existing 1030 card)

I have 3 of these units (the Lenovo thinkcentre 72 tower - and they are great. beautifully made and cheap as chips.)

Its an option for you.

You 'could' use the SFF units as well and providing the 1030 has the sff bracket, it would work out of the box. but you wouldnt have an upgrade path due to the SFF and PSU lack of update.

With the 72 tower, you can add a nice 500w cheapo PSU, more ram, better processor (you can pick up a nice 3470s for a few quid), better GPU - ie a triple / quad unit like the gtx 970 or 660 etc), an ssd.. whatever.
Although you wouldn't need to change anything at all to do what you need - and do it well.

The lenovo units are NOT like the dell units which usually have non standard parts / connectors etc. The lenovo units are basically bog standard.

Worth considering.

Joe
“Everything in moderation, including moderation.”
“Experience is merely the name men gave to their mistakes.”
Joe (CISSP) -IT security consultant

GoodSim
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:49 pm

Re: Using 5th & 6th Aux Displays Used To Be So Easy

#3 Post by GoodSim » Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:47 pm

Hey, Joe. Thanks for the input.

I actually have a 2nd PC (with its GT 630 reinstalled) that could be used to run additional displays. I agree with you about this option as being the one with the least hassle. However, the 2nd PC would need to be upgraded to Windows 10, have another anti-virus account, have Air Player installed, etc. This wouldn’t be a problem but I still believe that there is the simpler option of running two separate video cards as I was able to do before updating the Nvidia driver. The pairing of my Nvidia GTX 980 Ti with a cheap AMD/Radeon card might help to resolve that driver issue that I had while running two Nvidia cards (assuming the problem wasn’t Windows 10!). I see that it can be done, but may also introduce new issues. I was hoping for some confirmation before I waste $ on another card.

Vulcan is an improvement, I have to say. Thanks again.

User avatar
jph
Posts: 666
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:50 pm
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow..

Re: Using 5th & 6th Aux Displays Used To Be So Easy

#4 Post by jph » Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:03 pm

GoodSim wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:47 pm
Hey, Joe. Thanks for the input.

I actually have a 2nd PC (with its GT 630 reinstalled) that could be used to run additional displays. I agree with you about this option as being the one with the least hassle. However, the 2nd PC would need to be upgraded to Windows 10, have another anti-virus account, have Air Player installed, etc. This wouldn’t be a problem but I still believe that there is the simpler option of running two separate video cards as I was able to do before updating the Nvidia driver. The pairing of my Nvidia GTX 980 Ti with a cheap AMD/Radeon card might help to resolve that driver issue that I had while running two Nvidia cards (assuming the problem wasn’t Windows 10!). I see that it can be done, but may also introduce new issues. I was hoping for some confirmation before I waste $ on another card.

Vulcan is an improvement, I have to say. Thanks again.
Hi sir,
Yes, I understand. It can be a real hassle. WIN 10 is not an issue really as you can either get a completely free upgrade (still) or, get a prop license from ebay for a couple of dollars. and, that is not 'illegal' software / firmware etc. It is fine. MS want anyone and his dog to be on win 10.
As for AV, then please can I suggest that you use the built in AV of Win 10. it is absolutely fine. There is absolutely no reason to use another AV package. - and that is speaking from a professional standpoint.
As for the air player etc, well, yes, that is a hit on the old wallet. but at least the win 10 shouldn't be an issue if drivers are available.
The drivers for the video cards have 'advanced' (I use the term loosely) and do not offer the features that you want, you are stuck between a rock and a hard place. What NV hinted at - and AMD virtually promised regarding mixed cards has not worked out.

I wish you the best. Drop me a PM if you need any info.

Regards
Joe
“Everything in moderation, including moderation.”
“Experience is merely the name men gave to their mistakes.”
Joe (CISSP) -IT security consultant

GoodSim
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:49 pm

Re: Using 5th & 6th Aux Displays Used To Be So Easy

#5 Post by GoodSim » Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:26 pm

Excellent advice, Joe. Nvidia and AMD don't want you to use the other's card and they both want you to buy new ones.

I actually noticed just a few months ago that Windows 10 Pro was still available for free with my Windows 7 Pro license. I'm dual booting them on my main computer now. And I'm happy to say that my 5th & 6th monitors are back online thanks to a free Windows 10 Pro upgrade and installation of Air Player on my auxiliary computer (GT 630). Networking Air Player to my main X-Plane PC was a bit of a challenge (identifying traffic and defining rules in my ESET firewall). But I learned something new. And as you pointed out earlier, I have the capability to expand (running even more displays with the iGPU, etc.). So, until Nvidia and AMD fix their lack of multi GPU support, Air Manager with Air Player will take care of us nicely. They are are an awesome combination. The only thing I have to whine about now is having to juggle 2 mice (no touchscreens yet). Oh well, 3 steps forward, 1 step back.

Happy Mardi Gras from New Orleans, all.

User avatar
jph
Posts: 666
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:50 pm
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow..

Re: Using 5th & 6th Aux Displays Used To Be So Easy

#6 Post by jph » Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:55 am

Hi and a happy Mardi Gras to you :D
Really happy you got it mostly sorted out. Excellent news. :)
Just for some things that may interest you ? It may be worth looking at some of the following...

Disclaimer - I have NOTHING to do with stardock :o I am just a VERY satisfied customer. as you may be able to tell......

Personally I hate the win 10 interface :o ;) it is horrible, but there is an answer if you are like me in this respect.
Take a look at Stardock Start 10. A complete start menu replacement for win 10. Loads of options of how it will display. Personally, I use a Win 7 style which I find an order of magnitude better than the win 10 out of the box - to me - horrendous interface. It is payware, but not expensive and is, imho, superb. A first class company. - I enclose a screenshot of my desktop (with nothing incriminating - I hope - :lol: )
This is win 10, with Stardock Start 10 Start menu replacement. I use it on all my PC's. I use Start 8 on my Win 8.1 laptop - It looks exactly the same as the Win 10 version. I have used it for - I think - about 8 or 9 years starting with Start 8. https://www.stardock.com/products/start10/
My desktop - in the attached image - also uses Stardock 'Fences' which are the roll up 'windows' on the desktop https://www.stardock.com/products/fences/ - I show it with just the X-Plane window open as a simple demo - if you want more image, please let me know.. You only need to move the mouse over the area to see the full window, or you can chose option as to having it open all the time. You can also chose automatic rules to put files into specific windows, change colours, opacity, file organisation etc etc. Amazing product.
Search 'Stardock'
As for the dual mice / keyboards issue etc.. then again, Stardock can come to your rescue. They do a product called 'multiplicity' - You would want the Multiplicity KM version - which allows a single keyboard and mouse to control two PC's Might be just what you need ? . they also do full KVM across many PC's if needed but costs quite a bit more. https://www.stardock.com/products/multiplicity/ (please read further as you can get a far lower price)
Stardock do a lot of amazing Win 10 control options - they are available separately, or, you can get 'Object Desktop' for less than the price of Start 10, Fences and Muliplicity, and also get a load of other utils. https://www.stardock.com/products/odnt/ Personally, I only currently use Start 10, Fences, and Multiplicity although I dont have Multiplicity running at this moment as I am using a single PC with quad monitors whilst the toy room is being finished.
You can get a free trial of both Start 10 and Fences, unsure about a free trial of 'multiplicity', but I am sure if you email them you may well be able to get a free trial of that also. The staff at Stardock are incredibly helpful. They will also usually offer you a discount if there is one available and you email them.

here is an image of Start 10 and Fences on WIN 10. note as said, they are all fully customisable.
start10_Fences_Stardock.jpg
Now, As for the firewall, The ESET is an amazing bit of kit - no doubt at all, (and I am certainly not knocking it in any way) , but again, so is the Win 10 defender advanced firewall which is a full stateful unit at layer 3 and 4 (Network and Transport layers) of the OSI reference model.
Eset claim to offer other 'features' - these are often referred to 'Layer 7' features,, ie - 'application layer' additional features, which basically means that they include certain AV / malware scanning etc - as they are - as the layer suggests, operating at 'application level'
Windows defender does this also in the AV/ Malware part of Win defender which runs alongside the win 10 defender advanced firewall) So you still get a full Layer 3 / 4 and 7 protection.
I cannot see any benefit in running ESET over the built in WIN 10 'Defender' advance firewall and AV. One may have a better user interface (possibly ?) than the other.. I haven't tried both, but the functionality and protection would appear to be on a par with each other. - AND, the killer app part is the the Win Defender AV and Advanced firewall are totally FREE and included with win 10. I really detest a lot of what microsoft do with win 10 and data, and of course the horrendous interface.... , but, I also admire them for some of the superb features such as the protection.

I hope that helps ?
Joe
“Everything in moderation, including moderation.”
“Experience is merely the name men gave to their mistakes.”
Joe (CISSP) -IT security consultant

GoodSim
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:49 pm

Re: Using 5th & 6th Aux Displays Used To Be So Easy

#7 Post by GoodSim » Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:06 pm

"Yeah You Right", Joe. Hope the toy room is coming along.

I knew that there were options out there for sharing mice and keyboards between computers. I hadn't given them much thought until now. Thank you for bringing StarDock to my attention. All their stuff looks cool. For now, I'll deal with the unpleasant Windows 10 interface, but I investigated Multiplicity as you suggested. Their documentation is great and they do offer a free trial of KVM Pro. However, at this time, Multiplicity is unable to duplicate the intuitive mouse cursor travel that Windows Multi-Monitor and Nvidia Control Panel previously had between my 6 displays (now 7!). This isn't a huge deal and could easily be gotten used to. My problem is that my 4 main displays are between my other 2 (now 3!) auxiliary displays. The cursor would be able to transition between these 7 displays but the motion would be counter-intuitive (left for right, up & left for down, etc.). StarDock states in their documentation that they may add greater control of individual monitor placement in the future. I will definitely keep them in mind.

I thought I found my solution with another virtual KVM software by ShareMouse. They have a Display Manager that allows fine control of individual display orientations amongst multiple computers. Their documentation is also 1st rate. Unfortunately, they appear to have their own limitations for providing the "no-brainer" mouse cursor navigation that I'm looking for. Maybe they too will perfect this one day.

As long as software developers such as these keep providing excellent documentation for their products, I will continue my research for a "smart mouse". Until then, I'll just be grateful for having 2 "hamsters".

User avatar
jph
Posts: 666
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:50 pm
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow..

Re: Using 5th & 6th Aux Displays Used To Be So Easy

#8 Post by jph » Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:52 pm

GoodSim wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:06 pm
"Yeah You Right", Joe. Hope the toy room is coming along.

I knew that there were options out there for sharing mice and keyboards between computers. I hadn't given them much thought until now. Thank you for bringing StarDock to my attention. All their stuff looks cool. For now, I'll deal with the unpleasant Windows 10 interface, but I investigated Multiplicity as you suggested. Their documentation is great and they do offer a free trial of KVM Pro. However, at this time, Multiplicity is unable to duplicate the intuitive mouse cursor travel that Windows Multi-Monitor and Nvidia Control Panel previously had between my 6 displays (now 7!). This isn't a huge deal and could easily be gotten used to. My problem is that my 4 main displays are between my other 2 (now 3!) auxiliary displays. The cursor would be able to transition between these 7 displays but the motion would be counter-intuitive (left for right, up & left for down, etc.). StarDock states in their documentation that they may add greater control of individual monitor placement in the future. I will definitely keep them in mind.

I thought I found my solution with another virtual KVM software by ShareMouse. They have a Display Manager that allows fine control of individual display orientations amongst multiple computers. Their documentation is also 1st rate. Unfortunately, they appear to have their own limitations for providing the "no-brainer" mouse cursor navigation that I'm looking for. Maybe they too will perfect this one day.

As long as software developers such as these keep providing excellent documentation for their products, I will continue my research for a "smart mouse". Until then, I'll just be grateful for having 2 "hamsters".
Hey, Nice one :D

Not seen 'sharemouse' before - Thanks for the heads up - looks great !.
You sum up 'life' I think sir,
Hamsters and wheels Hmmmmmmmmmm. -- until you retire or die. :shock:

I chose the FAR better option at the age of 47.... and to hell with the rest of the world ;) Look after No. 1. :lol:
“Everything in moderation, including moderation.”
“Experience is merely the name men gave to their mistakes.”
Joe (CISSP) -IT security consultant

GoodSim
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:49 pm

Re: Using 5th & 6th Aux Displays Used To Be So Easy

#9 Post by GoodSim » Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:46 pm

Update:

OK, all. My "hamster" problem (multiple mice) has been resolved. I found that using Logitech's M720 Triathlon mouse makes navigating my 7 displays as easy as possible. It can be paired with up to 3 computers (devices) via Bluetooth or with Logitech's unifying receivers (dongles). A simple click transfers mouse control between devices and another click puts control back to the device where it was left. The mouse can also operate with a function in Logitech Options software (called Flow) that performs a similar multi-display navigation as is done with Multiplicity, etc. They make keyboards that can toggle between devices also if you need that capability. This is not a sales pitch but may help others with complicated display arrangements like mine. If all your "ducks are in a row", then the aforementioned virtual KVM software might suite you better.

So, fortunately for us, there are many solutions available for our specific rodent problems.

Happy Herd Immunity, everyone.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest